Hustle Grind Shine & Reignite: Episode 4 with Dr. Natasha Jones

For Dr. Natasha Jones, as for so many of us – life is what happens when you’re busy making plans. As a scholar, author, and as Associate Professor of Technical Communications at Michigan State University, Dr. Jones has had to learn how to turn lemons into lemonade and create a future in which she not only thrives but for those following in her footsteps. In this episode, we explore her Southern roots growing up in a conservative religious home, what it was like to navigate entering the workforce while embracing unexpected single-motherhood, and ultimately how's she found her power as a woman of color in the challenging world of higher education. 

• Why being comfortable and playing it safe doesn’t always lead to the happiness that you are seeking
• The power of saying no as a form of self-care, even when it’s something you really want to do
• The importance of cultivating mentor relationships, and also when to let go

About Dr. Natasha N. Jones

Dr. Natasha N. Jones is an Associate Professor of Technical Communications at Michigan State University, a technical communication scholar and co-author of the book "Technical Communication after the Social Justice Turn: Building Coalitions for Action" (winner of the 2021 CCCC Best Book in Technical or Scientific Communication). Her research interests include social justice, narrative, and technical communication pedagogy. She holds herself especially accountable to Black women and femmes and systemically marginalized communities. She strives to always center the narratives and experiences of those at the margins in her scholarship. Her work has been published in several journals including, Technical Communication Quarterly, the Journal of Technical Writing and Communication, and the Journal of Business and Technical Communication. She has received national recognition for her work, being awarded the CCCC Best Article in Technical and Scientific Communication (2020, 2018, and 2014) and the Nell Ann Pickett Award (2017). She currently serves as the President for the Association of Teachers of Technical Writing (ATTW). Outside of her academic work, she finds joy in poetry, yoga, plants and all things horror/sci-fi. Follow her on Twitter @natashaania

Transcript

Jessica Hartley: 0:01

Welcome to the hustle grind shine and reignite podcast. I'm your host, Jessica Hartley. Join me on another journey with amazing and talented professionals of color, laugh and cry and take notes. But most of all be inspired all of this and more on our next episode of hustle, grind, shine. And let's go Hello, and welcome to another episode of hustle, grind, shine and reignite. I'm your host, Jessica Hartley, and I am so excited to bring you our next episode with our next guest. Our next guest is Dr. Natasha Jones. She is the Associate Professor of technical communication at Michigan State University. She's also a speaker and a writer and an author and just an all around awesome and amazing black woman. She is also as we talked about in our prep call, literally one of my oldest friends, we met in sixth grade at Davidson fine art school in Augusta, Georgia. Shout out to the AUG, and all my southern brethren and sistren and non binary siblings out there. And so I'm just excited to talk to her and bring her story in her journey to you. Welcome Dr. Jones.

Dr. Natasha Jones: 1:33

Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited. And I'm super excited to share the space and time with you.

Jessica Hartley: 1:39

Oh, that's great. Well, I know you have such an incredible journey to share. One of the missions of this podcast is to feature women and amazing people across different industry. So a lot we're going to talk about today is this world of academia. But before we get there, let's talk about little Natasha Jones before she was Dr. Jones. Before you were mama Jones, you were little Tasha Jeff, also talk to me about your childhood. And growing up. And obviously I know your parents, you knew my parents. But talk to me about what it was like to grow up and what your childhood was like. And what did you want to be at that point in time sort of growing up?

Dr. Natasha Jones: 2:25

Let's start there. Yeah, so my childhood I think was pretty uneventful. As it goes, I'm the oldest of three sisters. So there are three of us. I'm the oldest, I was raised by the two parent household, my mom was a registered nurse. And my dad was a postal clerk. And they were really serious and made it a point that education was something that was expected of us something that they wanted us to take full advantage of full opportunities of, which is how I actually ended up meeting you. Because my parents pushed me to audition for I think at the time, they're called magnet schools. But Davis in fine art school, you had to audition and take a test and then be accepted into it. And it was one of the best schools and I think probably still one of the best schools in Augusta, Georgia. And so that was really a pivotal point for me, because at the time, I had all these ideas about what I wanted to do what I want to be, I want to be a lawyer, I want to be a writer, all of these kinds of things. And my parents made very clear that the way to do that was through education. And they were always very serious about grades, always very serious about making sure we were studying and those kinds of things. Those were some things that worked for me, but other things that didn't because as you know, I'm a very sociable person. And so education was not only my only focus to go to school, like I needed to talk, I need to make friends. I took get in trouble for all types of dance for the longest. And I was not good at dance at all, but I was committed to it. And just all these other things that kind of took my attention. I also really appreciated the later on, I'll say not immediately when I started to sing, but I appreciated the ways that I was able to engage different parts of myself. And I wish looking back I'd taken more advantage of like being more serious about this fine art or that fine art or whatever. But I think that those things kind of lingered with me like an appreciation for the arts and appreciation for like going to see a ballet or going to hear a jazz fan are going to hear you know, a symphony, and I think that those kinds of opportunities. Were not typical. For young black girls in Augusta, Georgia, which is highly segregated, still to this day, city, and there are clear disparities between races, especially, you know, when we think about, like, what was going on in the early 90s, right with like, you know, mass incarceration walls or those kinds of things. But even now, though, some of those things are persistent. But I was given the opportunity to engage in some of those things as a young black girl. And I think I, you know, if I had known, then I would have taken more advantage, because I was not aware those opportunities were not readily available to everyone. So most of my childhood was pretty uneventful. I think I had a lot of opportunities that other folks didn't have. And I think those opportunities have definitely shaped me, as I've gone off to, you know, pursue higher education and even raise my own daughter. So. Yeah.

Jessica Hartley: 5:54

So you're getting ready to graduate Davidson had this great, you know, middle school in high school of sort of a mixture of arts and very much still focused on academics. Davidson was as much as serious about academics as they were about the arts. And so you said, Okay, I'm going to school, how did you make this decision of where you were going to ultimately go and what you ultimately decided to major,

Dr. Natasha Jones: 6:22

right? Here's the interesting thing, even though my parents were really, you know, serious about education and making sure that we understood the value of an education, my parents didn't have a clear understanding of education beyond high school and what it means to go away to college, what it means to apply for colleges, what it means to apply for scholarship, what student loans mean, and I think a lot of black families at that time, who were watching things like a different world, Cosby Show those kinds of things, had this understanding of the importance of education. But we were not or our parents were not given the tools to understand what higher education meant. Most of their families, their parents didn't get past high school, if that our parents, sometimes they were getting past trade schools, sometimes they were taking courses at night, like my mom did. But going away to college, living in a dorm learning how to apply for scholarships and financial aid. That was not something that was readily understood. And so by my parents were like, you go to college, I did not have a lot of preparation. As far as what does that mean? What does it mean to apply for college, I remember my parents being kind of shell shocked at the cost for application, trying submitting the applications. I forget time, there was the whole grant where if you went to certain schools in Georgia, you were able to get your tuition paid for or a portion of your tissue and tuition paid for. But what does that mean when you still have to pay for dorms for books to travel up there, like so all these things that were not very understood. And I remember my heart originally was set on going to Spelman, and there was just no way that I could make Spelman work financially. When I decided, okay, I need to figure school out. I think that what happened was I ended up applying to a handful of schools like Georgia State, I think Mercer, I think UGA, the public schools where I could try to, you know, drawn the hook grant, and they ended up selecting one that made the most financial sense for my parents, which end up being Georgia State University. And I don't regret that at all. But it just goes to show like this whole now this discussion about like student loan debt, and how overwhelmingly burdens black women, and most of them are around our age, or even younger, like this was purposefully set this way, where, you know, yeah, versus constant trying to progress and move up and upward mobility and then the argument that, you know, education is the way and this purposeful kind of occlusion and ossification and, you know, just opaqueness around that what it is to actually do those things. So I ended up tearing out loans, I ended up taking out loans that I would have to pay back and then feel like struggling with

Jessica Hartley: 9:33

me to still taking care of it, taking care

Dr. Natasha Jones: 9:37

of it. Yeah. And so that's how I ended up at Georgia State and actually started my academic career which I didn't know that's what it was gonna be at the time. And

Jessica Hartley: 9:48

what did you think it was going to be? What do you think you remember thinking it was gonna be I think, you

Dr. Natasha Jones: 9:53

know, this, I thought I was gonna be like a magazine editor. Because at first I wanted to do law and then I realized that law did not really give me a chance. You know, I'm a writer. I've always been a writer. I've always loved creative writing poetry, stories, all of this. And so when I got to college, I actually met pregnant with Dr. Shirley Holmes. And she was in the communications department and she introduced me to Sweet Honey in the Rock and into Zaki Shang, gay and all of that. And I'm like, Okay, I want to be a writer. I don't want to be a lawyer, which my parents did not take very well. But also, I don't think they really understood that college is where you go, and you find out what you really want to be like, which figuring out you're passionate about. And I remember my dad saying something to effect well, you let these folks change your mind about being a lawyer, you let them convince you. And looking back, I didn't have the language to speak back to that, like, No, I see what you do when you go to college. But if you have a generation before you that's never had that experience, it looks very different to them. So I realized pretty quickly on that. My love was really with language was with the written word poetry was with magazine articles, news, but like anything written or anything, I came engaged, and so I really thought I was going to be this big time magazine editor. And I am actually was a major in English at first and then change that to print journalism minor in English. And that worked out for me, I got to do some writing some internships and non paid internships, some engagement with there's a

Jessica Hartley: 11:39

whole episode by itself on non paid internships, especially, you know, in the 90s and early 2000s, where people basically tempting the labor in a lot of cases, absolutely. You know, yeah, kids of color. Who I tell people Yeah, I had non paid internships, which meant that I had a side job. Yep. To pay, but I needed to just gas even if I was staying at home. Yes. I need a gas money and lunch money. Yeah. So you had to work while you did those interns. Right, you know, trust fund babies. No, no, you

Dr. Natasha Jones: 12:13

don't have to do it. Right. Or people who understand higher ed and have their foot in the door. You don't have to do that to that kind of thing. But so I actually ended up graduating within four years graduated Khun Lottie, which I was super excited about. And I remember, disappointed, I didn't graduate with higher honors. And I'm like, what the, you know what not?

Jessica Hartley: 12:38

Mr. Mrs. Chairman, there was such a delay.

Dr. Natasha Jones: 12:44

But I landed my dream job. And I won't mention the name of the magazine, but I landed a job at an Atlanta magazine as an editorial assistant. And about, you know, two months in or so I found out that I was pregnant. I didn't know the way the world worked. Right. And so thinking that I'm being upfront and honest, I told the job that I was pregnant, and they unceremoniously let me go, which, you know, I still keep in mind, like, every time I see that magazine, I'm like, yo, you know, it's fine, because I landed on my feet. That was a learning experience for me that even though people seem to have your best interests at heart, that's not necessarily true. And so I had my dream job as an editorial assistant at a magazine, I thought I was on my way up, sound that I was pregnant, and then have the real kind of ripped out from under me, which means that I was also been struggling, because I had an apartment, I had a car, you know, I was a young woman in in Atlanta. And I just had to like, pivot really quickly. Because it became evident quite early on that I was going to be doing this on my own, which actually, I'm thankful for now, it took me a long way to get to like, you know, what did they say Thank God, I didn't get what I asked for that kind of thing.

Jessica Hartley: 14:17

But God gave you exactly what you asked for. Yeah.

Dr. Natasha Jones: 14:21

And so I had to pivot really quickly. And there was a time where, you know, it was my daughter and me. I had to rely on food stamps. I had to rely on friends and scrambled to get on my feet. But I'm thankful for those because I think those made me stronger. I think it made me stronger, not only for myself, but for my daughter. And I think my daughter saw the work I was putting in and she saw me and we talked about this a little bit as a whole human, not just mom, but like, mom who's doing well here a mom who's struggling here, a mom who had a hard day or mom was frustrated about this he had. So I think that that has impacted our relationship. positively even though it was a hard time, and you know, difficult time to be a single mom to try to figure out, what am I going to do with this baby now that I'm all alone, you know?

Jessica Hartley: 15:10

So Right. And also the stigma? Oh, yeah, back then. Right? Because he has how old now

Dr. Natasha Jones: 15:16

she's 19. Now she's she

Jessica Hartley: 15:20

20 years ago this,

Dr. Natasha Jones: 15:21

but you know, you have a stigma, especially, you know, my family, our Uber religious, just our way religious, I can't even you know, you know that. It's a whole nother episode. And then for me having come from a two parent household, and then feeling like that was expected of me like I need to make this work. Because this is you know, what's expected of me and not understanding that families look different. They come in different sizes, they come in shapes, they come with single moms, they come with single dads, they come with two moms, two dads, whatever, you know. And so I did not have that language to understand that I needed to make my family work the best way that I could. And it didn't have to look like my parents marriage, it didn't have to look like any other relationship. I needed to decide what was best for Natasha and a Nia. And it took me a while to figure that out. But I feel like once I figured it out, I was able to course correct. And move in that upward direction that I had set out for myself since I graduated from from Davis. So yeah, yeah.

Jessica Hartley: 16:38

So you both I mean, you're talking about being let go from the magazine. You know, as we talk about parents and legacy and lineage is so critical, I think because I came from educated parents as well, and, you know, working professionals, but it wasn't corporate America. And it was just different, you know. And so you're like, there's just exposure to things and concepts that we didn't know. And so yeah, you walked in, and we're like, hey, I want to be transparent. I got a little Bambino gray. And they're like, no,

Dr. Natasha Jones: 17:11

no, no, thank you. We don't know like, Georgia, being an at will state and all of these kinds of things and not being able to take any legal repercussions because, like understanding the whole network of what corporate America look for, I had no understanding of that. And at the time, when I was pregnant out of wedlock, which was like Primula Whitlock, you know, back then, I also felt like, in certain ways, I could not ask my parents for advice, because they were, you know, they came from the like, the pregnancy out of wedlock is not the thing that's supposed to happen, like, it's not, okay, when they'll be there was, you know, so and even though they ended up being supportive, like, there was this barrier for me to be able to actually communicate about the things that I was struggling with, as a single mom, like, my parents don't know what it's like to be a single parent. And as much as they will empathize, and like to think that they understand theoretically, they don't understand what it's like to be you and your child, day after day and night. Yeah, whether you're close to them, or whether you're on the other side of the country, like I was on Washington State like they will. And it's not any a dig at them, but they will not be able to understand the concept of what it means to be a parent in that kind of circumstance. Yeah.

Jessica Hartley: 18:38

So how did you bounce back from that? I mean, that's hard. So hard, you know, feeling alone, having to create your own village and support system, having to rely on ways and things and means that are just hard and do things that you've never had to do before. Yeah. How did you bounce back from that? And make a pivot and sort of reignite what you needed to move forward?

Dr. Natasha Jones: 19:05

You know, I think reflectively looking back and thinking about, and you know, this about me, I am not shy about my feelings. I'm a bulldog. I'm stubborn. If you tell me I can't do something, listen, hold my drink. Listen, hold my mouse, I'm going to show you right. And so I've never been one to shy away from those kinds of challenges like some other challenges yet, but not those kinds of challenges. Because at my core, I think that this is something that maybe I've developed over time because I don't ever remember like being super confident in high school or super confident in college or whatever. But over time, after you, you know are successful at graduating from a really good high school or you're successful at completing college with honors are you successful at landing your dream Do you start to build up confidence in yourself? And yeah, as much as other folks who say, you know, they believe in me or whatever, I had to build confidence in myself. And so I just got to this point where over time, I was like, I can do this right, and I need to plan, I need to prepare. And I'll share this, I have generalized anxiety disorder, I'm a very anxious person, oh, therapist is working with me and all the good stuff. But as articulate to her at one point, my anxiety allowed me to get stuff done, like, get it done. In my head, I'm already going to worst case scenario. And I'm like, Okay, if this happens, then I need to do this, this and this, if I can't pick my daughter up from school, I'm going to have to ask this dismiss. If I can't do I'm going to have to leave class early and do this and jump on the highway. So like, in my head, I got like a plan A and a plan B. And I'm like, you know, I know, that's like anxiety working on you. But I was like, You're not gonna really surprise me, because I've already thought about worst case scenario, right. And so I think, in a way that anxiety drove me to get to plan to get stuff done. And to keep at it, like even when I have setbacks, just keep at it, keep at it, keep at it, until I could move forward. And after Nia came along, for me, it was not an option to fail. Failure was not an option. Like I needed a job, I needed a good job that paid this much money. If I was going to go to school, I needed to be able to take care of her and go to school and get my you know, education. If I was gonna move to Washington State like I did, I need to figure out where am I gonna live? What's my day gonna look like? Where's my daughter gonna go to school? So I feel like after Nia came along parent with that anxiety, it was like failure is not an option. This is your child your responsibility. You make it happen. Yeah, I don't know if it was like, an actual moment where I'm like, I got to pivot and do better. I think it was just kind of a progression of things over time that you created space in my

Jessica Hartley: 22:10

talk to me about how you navigated going to Auburn, and then to Washington, as you've referenced a couple of times, and then you went to New Mexico, I think you went to Florida, is it to where you are now, Michigan? So I want to hear about that journey and how you made the decision. Or sometimes the decision was kind of made for you to navigate from one role to another while also being a single mom, while also you went and got more degrees? Because Hello. What degree is not enough? You are Dr. Jones. So talk to me a little bit about that journey, from Auburn to Washington to the other places, and how have you navigated the balance of making the decisions? Because your decisions were not just impacting you, they're also impacting me as well. Absolutely. Well, after

Dr. Natasha Jones: 23:04

I had a knee, I did a little stint in corporate America do like customer service. I've worked at the mall at one time I did like, collection, you know, those kinds of things. And there's a part of me that was never really fulfilled with those positions. Because like I said, my heart is in the written word, my heart is in writing, my heart is in that kind of thing. And my sister Shalonda, who you know, was really pivotal with getting me to go back to grad school, because she's like, Hey, she was in grad school at the time. She's like, Hey, this is programming. Auburn is technical communication. It sounds like it has these writing components, it's in the English department sounds like something you might be interested in. And I just kind of stepped back and did an assessment, like a real quick assessment. And I was at a job where I was making pretty good money, I had an apartment for myself and my daughter, I had a car, I was not far from family. And I was like, I could stay here and be like, I could really just stay here and be okay. But I felt like I would never feel like I actually tried to be what I want it to be like, you know, I want it to be a writer of some sort, I want to engage. And so when Shalonda told me that I was like, Okay, I'm gonna take a leap of faith and apply. And if I need to take out a loan or whatever, do what I need to do. And so I applied I got in at Auburn. I learned what technical communication was because it was not what I thought it was. It's very different. I thought, okay, we're just writing instruction manuals, like no, you're not writing instruction manuals, you're thinking carefully about how any kind of complex information is explained to various audiences. So you're really doing like this careful audience analysis, you know, human centered kind of analysis, what does this group mean from this communication, whether it be a digital communication, a printed communication, an audio, whatever. And so it just kind of opened the world for me about what technical communication was, and once classroom and was able to do like a graduate teaching assistantship and have my own class and, you know, design my own lesson plans, I was like, This is it, this is it. I love the classroom experience. I love the research, I love that I was continually learning. And it wasn't the type of writing that I envisioned myself doing ever. It was research. And it was engaging in it. But it was fascinating to me. And it gave me an outlet to actually be able to do writing while learning while also engaging the side of me that did not know was there, which was the education side of me that I never knew was there. Yeah. And so from there, I have really great mentors. And I thinking, Okay, I'll just go into industry, because technical communicators can make a good amount of money. And she says, my mentor says, No, you are an educator, you are a scholar, you are applying for doctoral programs. And, and she says, which conference interests you? So I'm like, okay, these are the ones that interests me, I apply, I got into two of the three. And I chose my top, you know, school, which was University of Washington, in there at the time Technical Communication department. And there was another school that offered me a position as a doctoral student that was closer to home, that would have been the logical choice, I guess, as a single mom. But again, I was like, If I don't take this top choice, if I don't go with the University of Washington, I'm always gonna regret it. And it's scary. And I don't know anything about the West Coast. I don't know anything about Northwest, I'm a southerner. I'm a Georgia girl. I don't have any family. I don't have any friends there. But I was just like, I gotta, I gotta go. And so I remember, they actually flew me out to like, visit the campus and stuff and all of that. And I just kind of made my decision that I'm just not going to let fear hold me back. And I was scared, let me not mince words, I was terrified to go that far without family, with my daughter, and figure it out. But I'm glad I did. Because I feel like University of Washington set me up for a fabulous career, they gave me a good foundation, a great start for a career in academia. And I'm so thankful that I took that leap. And from there, I guess the other subsequent moves, we were at school in Florida was, you know, I got my first job as an assistant professor in New Mexico. I mean, I didn't know anybody there. But hey,

Jessica Hartley: 27:59

you try to hit four corners,

Dr. Natasha Jones: 28:02

when you try this little, this little bat, but each time I move, like from New Mexico, then to Florida to Michigan, in my head, I'm making these moves strategically, I'm getting more money, being able to negotiate course, loads, and being able to do the research I want to do. So every time I moved, you know, I'm like, this is a step up. This is a step up, this is getting closer and closer to where I want to be until, you know, I ended up here in 2019.

Jessica Hartley: 28:31

No, it's great. I love the part around taking a leap because I think it's just in our language, how to use that word to talk about, you know, making decisions, in spite of fear, despite of fear, it is there, we acknowledge it, we recognize it, we do all the things we can the planning the pros and cons to make sure we at least feel as if we have all the things that we know we are making the most informed decision as possible. But we're not letting us that hold us back. So I appreciate that so much. I want to talk a little bit about the very sticky topic of what it means to be a black woman in higher education. We just had take a couple breaths of that, right? Because, you know, obviously the last just few years, I think probably because of the pandemic and people have less time to spend out and they're spending it in and just seeing like some of the hashtags in the last couple of years that rent like viral like wildfire about what it meant to be black in academia, women in academia, women of color, men of color, and navigating these still predominantly white institutions. It's not corporate America, but oh my goodness, the parallels and similarities of these racist infrastructures, right. I mean, we're not even get to get into like how some of these organizations got built on the backs of slaves or only. And so you can't say that that stuff doesn't permeate? You know. So talk to me about how it's felt in band and how you've navigated. And did you find the network of other women, as you've been on this journey that have been support? I think women could be men as well or non binary individuals. But how's it been? And how do you navigate that?

Dr. Natasha Jones: 30:29

Well, I think that originally, you go into academia, at what, at least for me as being told that it's this bastion of liberal mess, right? Like this progressive space that you're not going to find in corporate America, you're not going to find another, these other jobs. And really quickly, you're disabused of that, you know, myth, academia is, in a lot of ways, neoliberal in the worst ways, macro politics, capitalistic, exploitative extractive. And the thing that I had to learn really quickly is academia does not love black women. It just started. And I doubt that it as if all of the institutions that I've been, you have these situations that happen, you get micro grants, or people say this or they bully or whatever. And so you're never immune to that, despite your credentials. You are a PhD you are you have your doctoral degree, just like these other folks, you publish, just like they do you present just like they do you teach classes just like they do. But you are still a black woman in academia. And if we're honest, academia was never built for black women, at least not academia that we have outside of HBCUs, historically, black colleges and universities, right, the predominantly white universities that we go into, for instance, the ones that I've been into, since the start of my career, you have to really figure out ways to protect yourself in your energy and while doing the work that fuels your passion, and that you feel like makes a difference. And so my work is all around social justice and activism. And specifically, looking in it took me a while to make this pivot, but looking specifically at Black women and other marginalized genders and figuring out like, Okay, what does it mean for us to engage in academic spaces and places? And I have this question that I have on my desktop, and it's what is tradition to the black woman scholar? What would it look like? A PWI? Yeah, and especially now over the last couple of years, what does it look like in these PW eyes, that are very good at creating the facade of diversity, equity inclusion, they're happy to put a statement up, they're happy to send emails about Black Lives Matter, they're happy to talk about how they are, you know, forward thinking and progressive, they're happy to create gender and equity organizations, they're happy to do all those kinds of things, except make real change, right? When we say, Listen, this is gonna take money out of your pocket, this is gonna, you know, ask you to shift your finances this way, this is going to ask you to change what your administration looks like, this is going to ask you to tear down this academic program that you build the last decades, you know, creating and rethink it and reorganizing it. This is going to ask you to go into neighborhoods that you think are, you know, not worth your time. And think about ways that you can learn from that community. Not that you can take learning to them, but that you can learn with that community. And this is going to ask you to rethink what academia actually means to society. Like if we're just all talking to each other. But does that mean for the communities that we're around? What does it mean for the land that these PW eyes are on? What does it mean for the communities that these put up to us depend on? And so I think, for me, it's taken, I think I graduated 2012 is 2022, right? 10 years, it's taken me a long time to stop expecting academia to make a space for me. And for me to make the space for myself, and be unapologetic that my academia does not look like your academia or my work might not look like your work, or I'm going to say no to these committees and these commitments, because that's not where my energy needs to give. And so it's taken a while for me to harness that resistance inside. And for a while, I was super angry, especially, you know, this past year, year before that super angry about just the things that I'm seeing in academia at not just this institution where I'm at, but beyond, and just realizing, you know, I can't make huge changes. But activism also happens in very mundane ways like me being able to support a graduate student, or me saying, No, I'm not going to serve on your diversity committee, so you can exploit me as a black woman, and then still not yet take my ideas up, or no, we're not going to invite these students to study with us when they can't be supported as full human beings in a predominantly white institution. So I think I've come to that realization. And I've started to make space that allows me to be able to sleep at night, about that kind of academic I am, and one scholar who work has been influential. Her name is Esther Oh, hito. And she talks about what it means to be a black woman in academia, she has an article called some of us die, death and decay, and the neoliberal academy or something like that. And she talks about her struggles as a black woman who was mourning the loss of her parents. She's a first generation African immigrant, and the whole push of publish and perish and produce of academia and how she created the space for her to be creative, to bring in, you know, her grief, her sorrow, and use that as a way to be reflective and be whole with herself, like reflective embodiment, and what it meant for her to engage in academia in that way that folks are not used to. And so I just keep her piece in the forefront of my mind. And I'm like, I'm gonna be the kind of academic I want to be. Yeah, and I can say that, and I want to say this, really quickly, I can say that now I have tenure. I, you know, I'm a good institution. So you know, me taking that risk looks different from untenured precariously positioned black women. But I hope that me saying that at least, opens doorways, or opens an idea or sparks some kind of inspiration in folks coming along, behind me or even folks ahead of me. Yeah,

Jessica Hartley: 37:22

I appreciate so much of what you just said, I mean, there is so much to unpack, but I think, you know, just listening to your story in journey, and to your point around these institutions were never created for us. So all we can do is try to, you know, make them as squishy and comfortable, acceptable as possible, such as, because we often use that word of like, these organizations are happy to, and I'm like, well, in my head on my own, and I happy about it, they are obliged, they have to write like they are obliged to do these things. And, you know, how do we carve out our own space and carve out who we are? And I find myself and others that I've talked to you as well, like, that's what you have to do? You know, there's a little bit of like, how do I protect myself, but still help others. And so I appreciate so much that and also your reference of the article, and the scholarship about how you carve out and sort of find your own path that might look very different from your peers. So you've done a lot. You have multiple degrees, Dr. Jones, you have worked at numerous institutions, I know the life of an academic, my partner and spouse is a reformed academic, is I live that life and understand a lot of it, and you've been a single mom raising have beautiful, amazing answers. And he is just a delight in fresh air. But how do you take care of Taj, right? How do you take care of you and how do you relax or restore? What does that look like for you?

Dr. Natasha Jones: 39:10

So I've been trying to be more more conscious of what it means to take care of myself and more just very purposeful in thinking about that, because for so long, I'm going to be honest, my focus was not me. My focus is like my daughter, and I will tell like, I will tell my friends when like, they're like, when are you gonna do this reading on day one, you know, I'm like, No, I said you know, when Amelia graduates and is in college when the knee is is all it you know, and so for a long time, it was like when a Nia is x women. And so 20 My daughter graduates, the pandemic yes, no mic now this is supposed to be mama time like no

Jessica Hartley: 39:58

yeah during different time.

Dr. Natasha Jones: 40:01

unifiers experience Gods goddesses ancestors, whoever y'all round I want to fly. Okay. So recently I found yoga. I love yoga. I'm not very good at it. I love this. Okay, we don't have it's not about being good, right? I mean when you don't want to get out so, and because of the pandemic, I do mostly like, you know, like daily burn or something like that, right. So I love yoga, it just energizes me, it energizes me, I love the meditative portion of yoga when I can just like you will with my breath, and do though, so I really love yoga, and I've slacked off here lately, but I really love yoga. I like doing things like, you know, listening to a podcast as I fall asleep. And that sounds like a weird thing for self care. But for me, it's like, I'll put on a podcast. And I like the podcast, it's tell stories, and the story of just me off to sleep, or whatever. And then the last thing that I've been doing, which is fairly new, is I had to get back to my creative self, because my love for writing started with creative writing, and poetry. And as an academic, that gets shifted your writing all the time, but it's not creative. It's not for you, it's not engaging that creative side. So I said, I need to do that. So I gotten back to poetry, I set aside one evening, a week to focus on my poetry. I'm taking class right now, because I'm not a professional poet. But I am taking a poetry class on Monday, like poet forms and learning about non western forms of poetry. And I'm able to actually engage in that. And I feel like that helps me engage my scholarly side as well, because I think about scholars like Audrey Lorde, who was a poet and a scholar, and just engaged in these, you know, use creative and Bell Hooks, you know, they're using their creative, they're using their educator plans, they're using their scholar lens. And so I find that engaging that creative side of me more seriously, like taking it seriously, like, I am going to write my poetry. I'm going to take this class, I'm going to read some poetry has helped fuel me and sustain me. I guess the final thing is, I say, No. When I say no.

Jessica Hartley: 42:28

I'll say can you say that? Again? I need I need to say it again. I

Dr. Natasha Jones: 42:32

say no, no, no, no. I used to be like, oh, sorry, I just can't know. And be able to say no, in different contests. Whether that means saying no to a committee. No to doing this extra thing. No to my parents. No, you know, and yeah, you'll be surprised how much time you can recoup just by saying no. I need to find a balance. And I think I'm getting a little no happy. But I need to

Jessica Hartley: 43:08

like, no, no, no, no, no, no, I think there was a tick tock or somewhere. I think it was a tick tock video that I saw. This is months ago, but it was like a woman showing you how to say no right? In like different tones and inflections. But yeah, I agree with you. And it's hard. It's hard sometimes to say no, even to things that you want to do that will be beneficial for you that could be lucrative for you or, you know, give you a bigger platform. I definitely still struggle with wanting to do so much. Right? There's just no capacity to do it. All right. How do you pace yourself? You know,

Dr. Natasha Jones: 43:46

the thing that I realize is like, I can't advise you to say no, or I need to say no, or someone else to say no, I have to actually understand that everybody's context and localized situation is very different. And so it's really a reflective practice, to say, Should I say yes, this can I say no to this. And also understanding that just because you have the time on the calendar, and you're technically available, does not mean you have to be accessible. So like really understanding that saying no, is about tuning in to yourself that your individual needs is really Yeah, that's the thing. I'm trying to keep it the forefront of my mind. Yes,

Jessica Hartley: 44:33

there is power. Yeah. And saying, no, yeah. Yes. I love it. Well, as we close, Dr. Jones, what advice do you have for other people of color, particularly women of color, young women of color who are in school right now. They might be an undergrad or grad School, and what advice you have for them one navigating these environments where you've navigated all the way from the bottom to not necessarily the top. But, you know, in a lot of cases very high up. And then also the advice of should they even pursue a career in academia, I mean, it's almost like being a teacher or being a nurse where it was exalted for so long, especially among people of color as this is a pinnacle, oh, my God, I do these things. And now there's, you know, people leaving in drops and swell, swells, or however, and how do they navigate? Now think, what's your advice?

Dr. Natasha Jones: 45:41

My advice is find your mentors, find those folks that you can depend on. And not only mentors in singular context, but mentors across different contexts. I needed mentors who understood academia, I need mentors who understood corporate America, I need mentors who understand publishing, I mean, winter to understand classroom practice, I mean, you know, mentors that actually helped me think about making community connections within the University and has nothing to do with academia, like where are the black women? Where are they who are adding talk to who do I need to be friends with those kinds of things. And so finding those mentors are really important, and making sure that you are able to connect with those mentors. And actually, I don't say use those mentors, but work with those mentors as they serve you. But also, I know that sounds strange, but don't be afraid to let go of a mentor that like, because I feel like a lot of, especially as black women, if we meet another black woman, and we connect with them, we feel like okay, this person is, you know, I got to hold on to them, I gotta hold on to him, we got to hold on to him. And you know, you might hold on to them in a personal space, but not a professional space, or vice versa. So figuring out what you need, as a person as an academic, and understanding that academia is not you, it's a job. It's a job just like any other job. And I think academics go into academia. And that becomes their entire being, I'm an academic, like, No, I'm Natasha, my academia is a job, I will close my email, I will say, No, I will take a break from publishing and if I need to, because it's a job, and I refuse to let a job, extract all of me. And so I guess if that was my parting thoughts, find those mentors that will help you be your whole self, whether it's multiple mentors, across contents, one or two mentors, and then keep in touch with what you need, and adjust accordingly. Yes,

Jessica Hartley: 47:51

I love that. And that advice, I think is so relevant, not just for people in academia, not just for young people, but very much for those of us on the corporate America side of things and our profit side of things. And I think so important in all of that, that you've said, because everybody's like, find a mentor, get a mentor, keep a mentor, but being okay with letting a mentor go, which doesn't mean letting the relationship go. But being mindful of like when you have, you know, fulfilled sort of the need of how they were going to service you and support you in that time. Because we do need different mentors for different things at different times in our life. So I love that. And I want to say thank you, Dr. Natasha Jones, you have been such a delight and pleasure to have on the show. I'm so thankful that you said yes. And it's always great to just reconnect and hear pieces and parts of you know, folks who I've known for forever. still hear pieces and parts of the story that I didn't know, but also so important and impactful for others to hear as well. So thank you for bringing your whole self to this show today.

Dr. Natasha Jones: 49:04

Thank you so much for having me. And it's so great to see your face. Great connect with my oldest friend and I really just appreciated the time to chat with you. Thanks for having me. Wonderful.

Jessica Hartley: 49:19

Thank you for listening to another episode of hustle, grind, shine and reignite. If you liked this episode, like, subscribe and share on all your favorite podcasts. I hope you'll tune into the next episode featuring another amazing and talented professional. In the meantime, shine bright